War, the force that gives us meaning.
I believe many of those photos are not from the current conflict because I'm fairly certain I've seen more than one of them before. Though admittedly it's hard to tell one picture of a child with it's face torn off from another.
My money helped pay for this destruction. I've never received a satisfactory answer as to why that is.
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scott said: My money helped pay for this destruction. I've never received a satisfactory answer as to why that is.
I too cannot fathom the apparently unbreakable link between the US & Israel....
Indeed, it seems very much to benefit neither the United States nor Israel. Certainly not the average citizen in either. But I suppose State actions seldom do.
scott said: But I suppose State actions seldom do.
As far as I'm concerned the State has basically a single function - to provide its citizens with an environment in which they can flourish.
I'm with you - I fail to see how aiding Israel to the tune of billions of dollars aids you in any way.
When they launch aggressive attacks like this, I wish all other countries would not financially/militarily support Israel. But what about the rest of the time? Is it fair to leave Israel more or less stranded in hostile terrority? I'm not someone who thinks Israel has no right to exist. That's part of the reason that I'm not totally comfortable criticizing Israel even at times like this - I don't want to throw my lot in with people who crab about Zionism and Jewish conspiracy theories 24/7. 90% of those people have never met a Jewish person, and know little to nothing about the history of Zionism and/or Israel.
Recently a Liberal Party candidate was removed for writing in '03 that Israeli companies in the World Trade Center knew all about 9/11 in advance, but chose not to inform anyone (blatantly false); people are defending her by saying she was "Zionized" or that Stephane Dion was strong-armed into dumping her by thuggish Jews. The other day, someone told me that Britain agreed to help establish Israel as a Jewish homeland only because Jews launched terrorist attacks to intimidate the English.
These current attacks in Gaza, unfortunately, are being used to further anti-Semitic agendas in Canada. In Ontario, the university workers' union CUPE wants to ban all Israeli professors from all campuses.
In addition to all this, genuine anti-Semites and racial supremacists here (and elsewhere) like to hide behind assertions that they are only criticizing Israel or Zionism. It can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And I don't want to be mistaken for chaff.
Israel would hardly be stranded at this point. They're the only nuclear power in the area and have bigger guns than anyone for a thousand miles.
There's really no need to make up conspiracy theories as the massive amounts of military aid that the United States has given to Israel for the past 50 years is in the congressional record.
That being said, I'm not one that thinks Israel has a "right" to exist. Such a concept is ludicrous and something I guess I such write about here to clarify my thoughts.
scott said: That being said, I'm not one that thinks Israel has a "right" to exist. Such a concept is ludicrous and something I guess I such write about here to clarify my thoughts.
Totally agree. no country has the 'right' to exist! Such a concept is indeed ludicrous.
Indeed. The problem is you say that and people think you're saying that you think that the Jews themselves don't have the right to exist or some such nonsense. As if people are defined by the nation state that they pay taxes to.
I agree that we're not - and should not - be defined by the piece of land we're on. What I mean is, there are a lot of people who think Israel should just be nuked into oblivion because the Jews don't deserve to have it, or any homeland for that matter. I'm not one of those people. I'm OK with Israel as the Jewish homeland. If this was a perfect world, they would've been given Bavaria or Florida. But they weren't. They were denied refugee status in every country to which they appealed after WWII.
Jon Stewart on his show the other day brought up in his interview with David Gregory the fact that no politician of either party seems willing to publicly denounce Israel. Gregory, whom I generally like, just parroted the standard, " ... but Hamas started it". There's such a thing as "measured response" that Israel doesn't seem to understand. It's like someone shooting a spit wad at you and you responding by blowing their head off with a shotgun.
scott said: The problem is you say that and people think you're saying that you think that the Jews themselves don't have the right to exist or some such nonsense.
Very true. Even when they know that you believe that no State has any 'right' to exist they still think you're talking about their personal right to live. The whole Israeli issue is, unfortunately, often too emotive even to talk about. All rational discourse quickly vanishes.
sme said: If this was a perfect world, they would've been given Bavaria or Florida.
I'm not sure if the Bavarians would have agreed with you. The problem with the creation of any 'homeland' is that there are few habitable places on the planet that are not already occupied. So what happens to the existing indigenous population?
dbackdad said: It's like someone shooting a spit wad at you and you responding by blowing their head off with a shotgun.
I had a similar thought myself. It's like your neighbour, who you have been arguing with for decades, punches you on the nose. So you beat him to death with a baseball bat, go back to his place, kill his wife and children, then burn his house to the ground - only to be surprised when people criticise you for going too far!
Great discussion everyone. I think it's important to distinguish between criticism of Israel (as in the Israeli government) and criticism of Jews in general. The two are not interchangeable. We can criticize the policies and actions of our government without being anti-American. We can do the same with Israel without being anti-Semitic.
I have a big problem with the concept of a state founded on a particular religion. I'm also pragmatic about Israel in its current incarnation, as its existence is backed up with nuclear weapons.
Israel's actions this week are not in the interest of Israel or the Palestinians or the U.S. The only ones I see benefitting from the current war are those who profit from war; the arms dealers, the weapons manufacturers, and the bureaucrats who use elevated tensions to justify all manner of attacks on our liberties and wallets.
CyberKitten is all too right; it's hard to have rational discourse on Israel. I think that's one reason I usually stay away from the subject. Some people, like everyone here, are capable of discussing Israeli policies without making it personal. Other people...not so much.
The other day a fellow Canadian, not realizing I'm also American, was discussing Gaza and said to me, "Well, you understand this [that criticism of Israel can be distinct from anti-Semitism], but if you try to explain this to an American it just goes over their heads. They're too stupid."
Saturday there was a pro-Gaza rally in front of city hall. Most of the participants, like my Richard, were civil and rational about the whole thing. They don't hate Israel or Israelis, they just want the killing to stop. But then someone has to go and spoil it: The largest banner there was an Israeli flag with a giant swastika superimposed on it. That's low.
Scott,
Being a Christian, do you ever look at political, global, issues with a heavenly perspective rather than an early one?
You don't think the connection between the US and Israel *could* have something to do with *his* plans and not our own??
It's mysterious but it's not surprising.
~Sadie
Sadie said: You don't think the connection between the US and Israel *could* have something to do with *his* plans and not our own?? It's mysterious but it's not surprising.
*Please* don't tell me you're talking about the 'End Times' here.....
*rolling my eyes" No...I'm not talking about the end times...excuse me, End Times.
:)
I'm talking about Israel on a basic level. Plain and simple. For someone that believes in the God of the Bible, it shouldn't be that confusing or shocking as to why Israel always find itself in the spotlight.
Scott said:
"I'm not one that thinks Israel has a "right" to exist. Such a concept is ludicrous and something I guess I such write about here to clarify my thoughts."
I was just asking for some insight from Scott. Some of the things being said here just to paint an eternal perspective.
:)
sadie said: *rolling my eyes" No...I'm not talking about the end times...excuse me, End Times.
:)
Good. I did think you were more reasonable that that!
sadie said: For someone that believes in the God of the Bible, it shouldn't be that confusing or shocking as to why Israel always find itself in the spotlight.
It's a bit more than confusing for someone who doesn't.... [grin]
Hi Sadie (of you're still around, I know I'm long on replying) I appreciate the comment.
"Being a Christian, do you ever look at political, global, issues with a heavenly perspective rather than an early one?
All the time. In fact I often wonder if the same is true with the mainstream political leanings of the Christian Right, what with their unquestioning devotion to the dictates of men.
"You don't think the connection between the US and Israel *could* have something to do with *his* plans and not our own??"
Well, no, actually. I mean the American connection to Israel is CLEARLY a earthly and man made connection. There's *nothing* pointing it to a divine intervention inspiring or guiding the rulers of either Nation State that would suggest some type of heavenly input. They've not made such a claim. Some religious leaders have, but these are just men (mostly charlatans) who are relying not on God, but *THEIR* interpretation of God and more specifically God's will. Which is a dangerous thing to make guesses on when you're dealing with the monopolistic, coercive, and violent arm of the State.
Much of this idea of an holy alliance comes from bad theology in my opinion. Theology which, unfortunately, has made it's way into the mainstream American Christian discourse.
Does this kinda give you an idea where I'm coming from? If not please ask more questions because I'm not sure I answered yours.
Scott,
No--I think you are misjudging where I'm coming from.
We should probably first establish where you and I stand on God's sovereignty.
You said,
"mean the American connection to Israel is CLEARLY a earthly and man made connection"
How so?
Doesn't everything pass through God's hands? I don't believe that God slaps his forehead in shock and surprise about anything.
Basically, on a very, very basic level--I'm just not surprised when I see Israel in the limelight all the time--throughout history.
Israel is a very "targeted" nation.
God has his thumb on the pulse of it all through time--so whenever I see situations in Israel escalate--I know HE is working something out for his purposes.
Not ours.
~Sadie
Well, no, I don't believe that everything is authored by God. I'm not a Calvinist. Doesn't mean he can't make good from the situation on a smaller scale with individuals, but that doesn't mean he is the conductor of the entire orchestra.
Israel hasn't been a nation state throughout history, so I disagree that they have been targeted for the past two centuries. According to Christian theology, they are no longer God's chosen people. All people are now God's chosen people. That's the work that Christ did.
The current nation State of Israel if VERY separate and different from the Israel of the past. To conflate the two is a simplistic approach to the situation, and one that leads to numerous problems. Problems like assuming the will of God is in their favor, and thus the might of the US military should be as well.
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